TS first IDO - XRune LP exclusions

As we know, the first IDO on Thorstarter is the Thorswap THOR token, scheduled to take place in September. As it stands there are two ways to participate in the launch; convert XRune to at least 100 vXrune and stake it, for an entry ticket if you like, then send desired amount of xRune in return for project token. Or, convert XRune to vXrune and stake it and participate in project token dividends, as part of the TS venture DAO. Both instances require XRune.

We also know that the TC issues have meant that a large number of the core ThorSwap community, TC supporters and ThorStarter supporters are currently locked out of their LPs, unable to access tokens. In some instances, for those who hold native Rune as a large portion of their portfolio, liquidity in that asset is non-existent.

The timeline has been revealed for MCCN return and it is likely to be an Oct 2021 completion. If the IDO goes ahead now, it effectively excludes members of the ThorSwap community that don’t have external, non-TC linked capital, but it also excludes the rune/XRune LPs who participated in the TS launch, with all of its issues and now can’t withdraw their xrune position aswell. The pool being made whole and functional is a TC issue, however, I believe the TC team, ThorSwap team and ThorStarter team (a lot of the leads of which have feet in all three camps) should be making representations on behalf of the community, to push the first IDO until the TC ecosystem is functioning and available.

As it stands right now, symmetrical LPs own the rights to a quantity of XRune in the rune/xrune LP. These people are being told that to participate in the first IDO, which marries two of the core elements of the Thorchain Ecosystem (it’s biggest LP interface and it’s official launchpad) they need to find additional capital and acquire XRune elsewhere or miss out. So through no fault of their own they have likely endured the flawed TS launch, supporting the pool to be the second largest on ThorSwap, sat through the TC suspension and now will likely miss the THOR launch!

Whilst I appreciate there are deadlines and commitments to projects/partners and technically the fact that XRune is ERC-20 and not native to TC means that there isn’t a technical reason the launch can’t proceed, I do believe that if we are to maintain an ethos of community amongst Thorchads, then we should find a way to delay the IDO. This would be my preferred route, to allow all people to participate fully, in their own chosen manner.

However if this is not possible, I believe there should be a way to accommodate the symmetrical Rune/XRune LPs in this launch. This could be achieved by taking a snapshot of the symmetrical pool participants at time of freeze and allowing their xrune position to participate, as staked vXrune, to at least provide some exposure to the launch via the Venture DAO. If it was done based on the time of the freezing of TC, their position would likely be on the lower side of their actual XRune holdings anyway, given price fluctuations on the paired assets, but even so, having a smaller exposure is better than no exposure.

In dealing with assymetrical Rune/XRune LPs, if delay isn’t possible, I think there is a case to exclude these from the staked vXrune idea based on the fact that they would never have had the facility as an assymetrical LP to take ownership of XRune anyway. Their intention in pooling was to earn fees and speculate on the price pair mechanism, likely to earn more rune, so a case can’t be made that they are “owners” of currently inaccessible XRune. However, they are TC participants and likely ThorSwap users, so even an airdrop allocation to them, is better than leaving them in the cold completely.

There has been intimations made that there is a large subset of the community that wants to push on with the launches as planned regardless of the issues…I have seen no vote, polling or data to show that is the case. THOR doesn’t even have any details of the IDO out yet, besides teaser posts on socials, and the IDO details are available only to privileged insiders. So I’d be interested to know how the community can have a view and opinion on pushing forward with all the IDOs as planned, with such an asymmetric information dissemination?

I’d appreciate the team’s and community’s thoughts on the above proposal

Thanks
TMc1908

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  1. MCCN timeline is a timeline, not a guarantee. And the hardest part, ERC 20 tokens, is last and it’s unclear how that might be handled. The timeline ideas isn’t one that can be relied one. For this reason alone, it makes sense for IDOs with TS to proceed.

  2. It’s not “symmetrical” LPs that have rights to vXRUNE in the XRUNE.RUNE TC LP, it’s any account, including the TS IDO participants, which did not 100% stake RUNE into the LP. These accounts will absolutely get a share of the value from the IDOs done before MCCN is relaunched, but perhaps not the snapshot share.

  3. THORChain is the party which caused and remedies the problem. It’s inappropriate to task TS with the responsibility to make TC LP holders “whole”. In fact, most of the affected LP holders likely have the resources to participate in the upcoming IDO regardless of the MCCN circumstances. It’s probable there only a few parties who are injured without resources to adjust to those circumstances. And though it’s little comfort to those so constrained, the dollar amount of opportunity loss - not actual loss - is likely to be small.

  4. Breaking or shifting deadlines and commitment involving millions of dollars and the operational needs of projects are demonstrably more significant than alleviating opportunity-lost injuries that TS is not responsible for. THORChads honor their commitments. THORChain has provided appropriate make-whole assurances to those who own XRUNE TC LP shares. Thorstarter honors its commitments to project IDO timelines.

  5. Currently, the business decisions of Thorstarter are the responsibilities of project leads. The project leads clearly want feedback. They have operated and continue to in good faith and on the community’s behalf. I would speculate that it’s likely the project leads together with the leaders in the THORChain ecosystem and large XRUNE token holders have had private conversations and decided this way forward is the best. I have not been party to any such conversation.

Personally, I also think the current plan of action is best.

Regards,
TehColeSlaw

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Symmetrical LPs are the only party that theoretically could extract XRune from the pool. Symmetrical are, therefore, the only ones that could be said to have any intention of using TS for IDO participation, by the fact that they have owned XRune and allowed themselves the vehicle to extract it when they exit. Assymetrical rune stakers can’t say this.

You continue to state that TC is the fault party and TS has nothing to answer for in your posts…I understand that TC halt is not a problem of TS teams making, however, they launched their launchpad token using a TC pool! Very successfully I may add, albeit for TS, not necessarily all of the participants. As such, they have had the benefits of the liquidity and support of TC participants. That shouldn’t be dismissed now by stating, “you’re asking TS to fix the TC halt”. I’m not, I’m asking TS to propose an internal solution, within their staking/governance framework, so that a group who supported their vision, growth and launch by being willing owners of XRune, are able to participate in this IDO. The pool could stay frozen and the idea I proposed would still work, since it’s based on snapshot, but it would need commitment from the TS team.

I appreciate that delay is a complicated issue and the least likely outcome, as there are many stakeholders needing to sign off. And yes, this is maybe a case of the little guy trying to stop a juggernaut, when you look at it in a monetary lens, but it would be remiss of me, as a community member, to not try to legislate on behalf of the community, where I feel the larger powers and entities in the ecosystem are somewhat flippant about the issue. The only reason TC will survive this hack is the strength of the community. That community/project relationship is a delicate balance can only be pushed so far. I’m in crypto partly for financial benefits but also as I don’t like the undemocratic, biggest pockets win mentality of Trad-Fi and normal life. It’d be a shame if in building these new communities and ecosystems, we basically embed the same disparity and selfishness that exists outside of crypto

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TMc1908 has done the community a great service here by sticking up for the people who have remained loyal and endured the most through the TC journey. I agree with all his statements and feel that they are not only fair, but he has also suggested reasonable steps to alleviate community concerns.

Remember, TS used TC’s vast network, community, marketing, deep liquidity pools and platform to grow TS. I think neglecting the community now is a bit of a kick in the teeth.

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It appears there is some confusion here. We’ve publicly stated that we will need to move forward with non-TC IDOs (here: https://twitter.com/thorstarter/status/1418952148042276865).

Per a statement in Discord (shown below), @TMc1908 was under the impression our first IDO would definitively be THORSwap. From our conversations with them thus far, they want to wait until TC is active before launching.

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Thanks for sharing this follow on. Noted that your point still stands. Perhaps consider editing the OP for clarity with a footnote?

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Very happy to read up on this discussion.

I support TMc wholeheartedly, when it comes to the THORChain related projects and up untill now I was under the impression those projects were due to launch before TC is back up.

I am even a little bit in disbelieve so i will ask for clear confirmation again: No TC related IDO’s will happen before TC is back up?
(So people with locked funds in TC can participate on even footing with those who have enough capital outside of TC? Ironically, THORChain maxi’s would be hurt the most if TC related IDO’s were to continue before TC is back up.)

Maybe it is a good idea to publicly re-iterate that TC-related projects will only launch once TC is back up again? Because there is reason for confusion atm.

I can also understand that non TC/cross-chain related projects need to go ahaed with their launch and that THORStarter in not responsible for opportunity costs caused by TC. On this front, a snapshot for some vXRUNE staking is very elegant and would be appreciated. But as a THORChad is something I can do without.

But when it comes to TC related projects, I stand by TMC’s arguements and for me a “we’re all in this together” mindset is the fairest way forward, because I also can’t see how delaying these types of IDO’s would hurt anyone? Paper hands have sold during the chaos, and diamond hands will stay here regarless. Correct me if i’m wrong.

A final question: Is there any news on non-TC related projects that are in talks with THORStarter? Where can I read this news?

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Just to address one point:

Delaying IDOs, in my opinion is not a very bright idea.

Launching projects on their slated schedule, builds trust and momentum. Both within the community and with projects themselves. It’s 2 things a launchpad runs on, especially early doors.

Some are saying about “the little guy” when they as LPs are trying to hold up the whole show for their own agenda, rather than the health of the project.

Let’s clear up one point, LPs stake, not from kindness of their heart, but for financial return. That’s ultimately the drill, and with all return comes risk. You cannot expect risk less return. It does not, nor should it, exist.

This project has already survived one seismic event, to willingly sail it into another isn’t wise.

Consider the multitude of variables and factors that go into a launch, the project itself will be wanting to choose a good time to move, for obvious reasons. There are plenty of other launchpads out there to choose from if TS decides to keep itself in the starting blocks.

The market is healthy atm, and who knows when TC will get MCCN back. Again think of the health of the wider project. Or we may not have much of an LP waiting for us when we turn around.

Let’s not be entitled, from someone who bought TS in the IDO, who LP’d RUNE-XRUNE, and who also bought through the dip.

There is more going on here than what’s in our own bubbles

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I agree delay of all projects is perhaps unfeasible and that’s why I believe the snapshot idea, which can be handled internally to TS is a simple and elegant solution, requiring no delays or waiting for TC to unfreeze.

LPs did choose to pool for financial gain, but they also chose to use the XRune/Rune pool because they believed in TS and it provides a means to acquire the XRune to be able to participate in future IDOs. The freeze has stopped that. Whilst the freeze itself isn’t TS issue, TS do, however, have it within their gift to come through for the XRune/rune LPs and allow full participation in the IDOs on the TS platform.

You state return without risk shouldn’t be expected…I don’t think anyone does expect that to be honest. The XRune/rune LPs endured the risk of the TS IDO with all of its attendent issues, they have then sat through hacks and freezing of the ecosystem. I think most are comfortable that there was some degree or risk in a wider sense. But now they are being told they can’t participate in the first IDOs, unless they go and acquire XRune somewhere else, which is an unnecessary demand in my opinion. I think it’s time that they were acknowledged and supported. Without the XRune/Rune pool, TS wouldn’t even have the liquidity to operate as a launchpad.

Delay is probably the least likely route, I understand the competing tensions there and the financial impact. However snapshot staking is a relatively painless solution, requiring a querying of the API to identify the addresses and some internal TS coding to allow the staking of an LP’s XRune position in the DAO facility. They’re yet to release the governance and DAO participation infrastructure into the wild anyway, so that’s still a work in progress. A commitment to stretch the dev goals, to allow the snapshot stake would be a great signal to the LPs that gave them a platform in the first place, in my opinion

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Finally some serious discussion. Thank you @TMc1908

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Capital chasing IDOs is easy easy to find.

Quality IDOs are hard to find.

thorstarter needs to focus on the needs of the potential IDO candidates, including the appropriate timeframe for their specific launch.

IDOs are the first class citizen of thorstarter. The rest of us kinda have to deal with that fact. We are a small part of the multitudes that want to ape into IDOs.

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I don’t see you mentioning any difference between TC related IDO’s and “normal” IDO’s on Ethereum. Is this by design or didn’t you read up on the entire discussion? (I will assume it was by design for the rest of my comment.)

First of, your arguements are solid when it comes to non THORChain based projects, but when it comes to projects meant to particiate in the TC ecosystem, I find the arguements lackluster.

Most of your arguements revolve around the idea that delaying TC related IDO’s would hurt TS or the project… While TC is down, the tokens can’t be used anyway. And you’re here preaching that delaying the launch of these tokens will be bad for the project or TS? TC being down is what is hurting those projects, and one can even make the arguement that a delayed launch will be more succesful, because then people regain confidence in the TC-ecosystem first because there is a working product again.

You say that “the little guys” are trying to hold up the whole show for their own agenda (which is true, we are), as if that is a bad or selfish thing. But I don’t agree it’s bad or selfish, fair access to a TC related IDO is the right thing to do, and happens to serve the interest of LP’s who’ve got a mayority of their funds locked up. And while we’re going there, let’s also admit that going ahead with the launch is mostly serving the interest of the whales. Because they can now buy the bigger share of the launch while people with locked up funds will have to wait untill after the launch, to buy tokens from those whales.

Add to this the arguements already brought forward in the discussion, and the idea of going ahead with TC related launches really only seems to be all about the money. Because I haven’t heard solid arguements as to how exactly delaying IDO’s for projects that only work on TC is going to hurt TS or the project that wants to launch.

People who haven’t given up on TC or TS after the recent troubles, are not going to give up because tokens which cannot be used while TC is down, are delayed in launch untill they actually can be used.

I’d say it even stands to reason that IDO’s for working products will be more succesfull than those without one, because there is more confidence from every investor involved. Also for the attraction of new users/investors, not many are coming in while TC is down.

Finally: Is it too much to ask for people who are TC fanatics, to want to buy the tokes they are going to use in the TC-ecosystem at IDO prices, instead of having to buy from others who were not affected as much by funds being locked up in THORChain?

While I type this, I find a possible solution that could make everybody happy: TS could release a form exclusively to people who have funds locked up in TC, where those people give a figure$ they want to commit to the IDO if their funds were not locked up. And then buy the tokens at IDO price within a timeframe after TC is online again? Same for vXRUNE staking?

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I like the fact that everyone is raising interesting points and talking, and I think making sure everyone is heard is important in a community. But I fear the back and forth and confusion regarding the coming IDO might hurt Thorstarter. We are all in the same boat as XRUNE holders and TC ecosystem supporters. I’m sure we can agree that if Thorstarter loses traction and XRUNE loses value, we’ll all lose together.

  • I think $THOR airdrop and ability to stake RUNE-XRUNE LP positions for VXRUNE, would be an acceptable compensation even if not perfect. But it should be enough to move forward with the IDO. I’m in both LPs, one is halted and in the other I’ve been affected by IL. I would be ok with airdrops and ability to stake LPs for VXRUNE. I also have some XRUNE that I bought, not even at a good price, to be able to buy $THOR in the IDO.

  • We need to set a clear path, maintain interest, trust and confidence and avoid confusion. With things being up in the air regarding when TC will be fully operational again, it’s important that Thorstater shows a clear path regarding the coming IDOs. There need to be some sense of stability. I just learned reading this thread that Thorswap is postponing the IDO. I think it’s unfortunate and we need a timeline. Thorstarter and Thorswap should hold the fort and keep business alive while TC is healing.

Well it’s just my two cents and I respect everyone who has a different opinion.

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I was under the same impression, even THORswap wrote somewhere that they were thinking about early September.

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Yes agreed, which is why I proposed the staking of xrune/rune LP, as the quickest/easiest solution to allow IDOs to go ahead as planned and to enable all of the community to participate in some capacity. LPs may not be able to participate as fully as if they could if they were able to withdraw all of their xrune, but something is better than nothing.

I’m not a dev but it isn’t that difficult to implement what I’ve suggested, from a technical point of view, so hopefully the TS team come through :+1:t2:

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This is why we thought Thorswap would be the first IDO, it’s from 9 days ago. Can you confirm that plans have changed? Maybe the change should be officially announced?

We are discussing the $THOR IDO plan in detail with @thorstarter team.

THORSwap will be the first project launching on Thorstarter IDO and it has a great meaning for THORChain community.

Early September sounds promising!

$XRUNE $THOR

https://t.co/RgUK5Cxbd2

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Exactly why I thought it was first up too :ok_hand:t2: I was trying to find the tweet yesterday but couldn’t locate it. Thanks for sharing

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Seems like in the end everybody might be pleased / end up happy. The current plan seems to be:

  1. THORSwap’s IDO is delayed until the THORChain network is operational again, which seems like it might be sooner that later if everything goes well and the current pace is kept (instead of the original October timeline). This makes sense for a THORFi project. They also will be the first THORFi project to IDO on Thorstarter.

  2. Thorstarter has been saying it will do it’s first IDO in August, it has an obligation to it’s private investors to act on it’s roadmap, and it seems like some non-THORFi projects, referred by coucil members, are ready to do so. While it would have been nice if a THORFi project was the first one to IDO on TS, the TC hack wasn’t in the plans.

This means all THORChads will be able to use their funds locked up in TC to participate in THORFi IDOs.

Now back to the original proposition of doing more for frozen TC LPs, at the moment, it seems like it will be possible for TS to credit TC XRUNE-RUNE LPs with their share of vXRUNE in the DAO in time for the snapshot of the first IDO meaning they would get full DAO participation rewards as if TC was operational. As for people that were planning on taking out some funds to participate in IDO, that still wont be possible, but given the per address caps and the fact that the first IDO wont be a THORFi project, that shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

Cheers!

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Excellent news! If this is indeed confirmed officially by the TS team, in due course, then I think it’s a great outcome. Not just for the LPs, but also TS’ reputation amongst the community. Would be another example of the collective strength and unity that exists in the TC ecosystem.

I appreciate everyone’s input in this proposal so far and the team being receptive to feedback and fingers crossed this is officially announced soon🤞🏻

Thanks Kiasaki for the update

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